When and how did you meet?
Anthony: We met in the early 1980’s when we both were students at Exeter University in South West England. George was studying music and I was studying zoology. We were both involved with student musical theatre companies - George was musical director of the Gilbert and Sullivan Society, and I was directing new musicals (my brother had composed) with a new student company called Stage Door. Our student productions were staged at the Northcott Theatre - a professional theatre built on the University campus. Although we knew of one another, we did not meet properly until 1982, and we started writing together in March 1983 - our final year as students. The first show, TUTANKHAMUN, was produced, again at the Northcott Theatre, in March 1984.
George: We were actually told we’d hate each other by our mutual friends - and after 22 years I can confirm they were right! We were both using the photocopier in the library - Ants realised it was me since I had the score of The Pirates of Penzance and he said “You must be George Stiles…” I only wish I had lied and said I was Johnny Depp (to whom I bear a strong resemblance).
Have you developed certain rituals when writing together?
Anthony: We always discuss the dramatic situation together, before either of us puts pen to paper. Then, most commonly (80% of the time), I will start to write lyrical ideas down. I always use very large sheets of paper and generally prefer lying on floor cushions when I write. I jot down any ideas for jokes, rhyming couplets etc. all around the edges of the paper. When I have enough ideas to tackle the song, I start to put couplets and phrases together in the middle of the sheet. Anything I am happy with I draw a box around - which just makes it easier to home in on what is, by now, a large sheet of scribbles and doodles. I usually come up with a title and maybe a verse and chorus, then I give it to George to play around with. He is usually in the same building but not in the same room. He likes to pace up and down reading the lyric for a while and getting ideas for a rhythm in his mind (which is not always the same as the rhythm I had in my head when I wrote it). He then sits at the piano (banning me from the room!) and starts to improvise ideas.
George: It’s strange what helps you - one of the most odd sources of a rhythm has to be in Peter Pan when the song The Lost Boys Gang was suggested by the throb of the extractor fan in the bathroom of the house where we were working. I also extemporise tunes against the hum of the vacuum cleaner or the constant tone of the alarm in the house. I try and stay away from the piano as long as possible so that my fingers don’t fall into familiar patterns.
What was it that attracted you to the “Poppins” property?
Anthony: We were approached in January 1994 about the MARY POPPINS musical - the initial approach was by a West End producer called David Pugh, who at that point was going to be involved (as well as Cameron Mackintosh and Disney). Rumours had been circulating for years about POPPINS being produced as a stage show. We had no idea that new songs were going to be needed, nor that we would be asked to write them (I guess we would have assumed the Sherman Brothers would write anything that was needed). I had actually never seen the film of “Mary Poppins” at that time, though I had seen so many excerpts on TV that I pretty much knew the story, and of course I knew all the songs. When we knew we were being considered we went out and bought the video, then tried to imagine where new songs might fit into the story - not knowing, at that time, how much the storyline would be altered for the stage.
George: Aside from it being a commission, I suppose we do have a habit of writing stuff which appeals to all ages. Mary Poppins has the magical ingredient of a creature from a different world who comes into a families’ life and turns it upside down (or the right way up in this case!) Peter Pan is not that different in that respect.
Did you have to audition for the gig?
Anthony: We didn’t exactly audition but, knowing we were being considered for the job, we wrote a song on spec in 1994 called PRACTICALLY PERFECT. We recorded this in a studio, with Claire Moore as Mary Poppins, and with Claire and myself playing the two children. We delivered the finished song to Cameron Mackintosh, even though he had never talked to us about the project. He called to say he loved the song, and would use it to try to convince the Disney guys that we were the people for the job. Apart from one couplet, PRACTICALLY PERFECT has remained unchanged since that day, and is now the first song Mary sings within the show. We heard that Michael Eisner and Tom Schumacher, from Disney, had the song on their Ipods!
George: Cameron liked Practically Perfect so much he asked us to write another. We did - it was called “Ever So Mary Poppins” and there’s not so much of a note of it in the show!
You’ve succeeded brilliantly in writing in the style of the Sherman brothers’ songs for the 1964 Disney film. Was this a difficult task?
Anthony: Thank you! We have both been huge fans of the Sherman Brothers since THE JUNGLE BOOK came out in 1968 (I think). They have a wonderful, idiosyncratic way with both lyrics and melody that seems to render them instantly memorable. With PRACTICALLY PERFECT, we deliberately tried to imitate their style. It is perhaps the most Shermanesque of the new songs. I studied how often they use a title within a song, and whereabouts it falls within the lyric. It was not a difficult task, but a wholly enjoyable one - and the Sherman’s have been very complimentary about our new material.
George: It’s always hard JUST imitating someone - the trick is to try and put some of yourself in there too. When the songs are as good as the Sherman’s - it’s great - since we love to have the benchmark set so high. Some songs were deliberately pushing away from their style - Temper Temper for example.
What was also enormous fun was adding to the Sherman’s material. Three of their songs were heavily revised by us - Jolly Holiday, Step in Time and Supercalifragilistic. We have added bridge sections, counter-melodies, new lyrics and reharmonisations. We also wrote “variations” to their theme of Chim Chiminee. Bert is used consistently as narrator and we didn’t want the audience to groan from getting the same tune all night! We were really touched when Dick Sherman suggested combining Spoonful and Practically Perfect as Mary leaves the nursery - since he feels they’re the 2 songs that we associate with the character. Also, as Mary zooms over us at the end we combine Let’s Go Fly a Kite and Practically Perfect - it’s as if they were made for one another!
George just mentioned Temper Temper, a song in which the children’s toys come alive to punish them for their mistreatment. It is my favorite new song in the show and is rather dark, highly theatrical, and has a wonderful rhythm. How did this number come about and was there any discussion about its tone?
Anthony: The darkness of the situation appeared in a very early draft of the synopsis which Cameron and Tom Schumacher had come up with. Originally it told the P L Travers story called “The Doulton Bowl” - in which Jane and Michael break a porcelain bowl in the nursery, and the characters who were painted on the bowl (and were injured in the breakage) come to life to get their own back on the children. It was agreed that a broken bowl would be hard to effect on stage (as the audience would not be able to see the painted characters on it and thus would not know who they were when they came to life).
It was decided to adapt the essence of that story, but to make it about the mistreatment of the toys in the nursery, who then come to life.
George and I used to have weekly visits to Cameron’s house in Somerset to play him “the latest offering”. On the day when we were supposed to play him the nursery song, we had not come up with anything. However, we dutifully drove down to Somerset - thinking it best to just face Cameron and tell him the truth, and hopefully discuss the scene further with him in order to get more of a ‘take’ on what was required. Having arrived in Somerset, I went into the kitchen with Cameron to make the coffee while George went into the piano room. George started playing a very rhythmic, timpanic tune on the piano - a bit like Carl Orff. Cameron’s ears pricked up and he said “What’s that?”. I replied, “It’s the new nightmare song in the nursery.” It was one of those wonderful occasions when the music not only came first, but really spoke to me to tell me what the lyric should be. On the spot I came up with:
TEMPER, TEMPER CAUGHT YOU AT LAST
YOUR QUICK TEMPER WENT A BIT FAST
THIS IS A PLACE OF WOE
THIS IS A PLACE WHERE ALL WICKED CHILDREN GO etc.
George, did you collaborate with the master orchestrator William David Brohn (“Miss Saigon”, “Crazy For You,” “Ragtime”) on the new orchestral sound of the show and how would you describe it?
George: Yes - Bill and I have known each other for 15 years now. He orchestrated The Three Musketeers for me (not the Joop van den Ende one!) and he is one of my favourite people in the world. We talked a lot, as Cameron and Tom told us we had a maximum of 16 players for the show. We knew we should not try and have a “one of everything” band, since it might sound thin and characterless. Mary is a strong force, so we felt brass was essential. Bill insisted that we needed 2 trumpets, 2 trombones and 2 horns. The trumpets and trombones double on flugel, cornet, euphonium and tuba, so we can achieve a real “brass band” sound in Jolly Holiday and Spoonful, as well as for George Banks’ character in Precision and Order.
From there we knew we needed woodwind (3 of them on a big range of instruments), but the breakthrough was the concept of 2 pianos at the heart of the sound. In my studio I have a Yamaha C6 Grand Piano which is fitted with MIDI so that I can input directly into the Sibelius program when I write. This means I can also “layer” a synthetic sound behind the real sound of the piano. As we were experimenting, Bill jumped up and said “That’s it!” and told me how Gershwin nearly always had 2 pianos in his pit bands - it was an old Broadway tradition. We have 2 of “my pianos” in the orchestra, and it means we can layer in marimbas, celestes, electric pianos, xylphones, children’s choirs, distant trumpets and a host of other sounds. We also use the 2 of them on their own quite a lot. Some of my favourite stuff is when the 2 pianos are underscoring the action towards the end of the show.
But we also have a brilliant “signature sound” from the electric guitar (who also plays banjo and accoustic guitar) using a device called an “eBow” which produces a strange sound with no attack by resonating the string with a magnet. Then there are 2 percussionists (playing everything including the kitchen sink) a bass (electric and accoustic) and crucially a ‘cello. The addition of the ‘cello was very important after we did some trial readings about a year ago - we needed the warmth of his sound.
Did the out-of-town tryout in Bristol benefit the show?
Anthony: I think it was very beneficial to all departments. As well as getting the show up and running, away from the gaze of London critics, it gave us all a chance to change things. I think every department including writers, directors, choreographers, set and costume designers, sound designers, lighting designesr, orchestrator, make-up artistes and magic consultants made alterations. We cut the show, as it was running too long, and we also got a good idea from the audience reaction as to where things needed to be addressed. Many of these changes were effected in Bristol, right up until the penultimate week there, when we thought it best to let the cast just play the show unaltered for a performances. A few more changes were made when the show was re-rehearsed at the Prince Edward Theatre.